Peter Jones Interview
Peter Jones is our keynote speaker for our The Gospel Coalition: Bay Area conference on March 18.
Below is an interview Mark Driscoll recently conducted with Peter Jones:
4 Questions with D.A. Carson
For our debut issue of Commit I interviewed D.A. Carson about the gospel, the upcoming generation, and doing ministry in unchurched regions like the San Francisco Bay Area. The interview is posted below. Go here to order a copy of, or get more information about, Commit (sorry, we’re still working on PayPal).
1. In a paragraph, what does it mean to be gospel-centered in one’s Christian life?
Some think of the gospel as so slender it does nothing more than get us into the kingdom. After that the real work of transformation begins. But a biblically-faithful understanding of the gospel shows that gospel to be rich, powerful, the wisdom of God and the power of God, all we need in Christ. It is the gospel that saves us, transforms us, conforms us to Christ, prepares us for the new heaven and the new earth, establishes our relations with fellow-believers, teaches us how to work and serve so as to bring glory to God, calls forth and edifies the church, and so forth. This gospel saves — and “salvation” means more than just “getting in,” but transformed wholeness. It would be easy to write many pages on how a gospel-centered ness affects all of life, but one must begin with a full-orbed understanding of what the gospel is and does.
2. What do you see happening with the gospel and my generation, the twentysomethings of the American church? Are you encouraged?
Cautiously, yes. It is still a day of relatively small things. But it is always encouraging to observe the substantial number of twentysomethings who want to learn what the Bible says, who are looking for faithful mentors, who are tired of the endless openness of some strands of postmodernism but who do not want to drift back into isolationism or privatized religion. Some from very culturally conservative Christian backgrounds are engaging in a pendulum swing toward “hip” stances that are barely orthodox, but they are winning almost no one except other people like themselves. In God’s grace, the future lies with that part of the younger generation that is passionate to understand, believe, and obey the truth, and who to that end are diligently studying the Word of God for themselves and learning lessons in contrition and joy, in humility and courage, in faith and obedience, that every generation of believers must learn.
3. Here in the San Francisco Bay Area we have a lot of work to do. This is a highly unchurched metropolitan area with great hostility to the gospel. What are a couple brief points of counsel you’d give to church leaders wanting to build (or re-build) a gospel ministry in a region like this?
Trust Christ; believe the power of the gospel; abandon short-term gimmicks; think big but start small and be faithful; meet with, work with, pray with, learn from, those who have a common set of commitments and vision.
4. What are a few key resources you recommend to your average church member who wants to better understand how the gospel is meant to drive the entirety of the Christian life?
Once again, the first step is to understand the gospel, for in doing so, its ties to all of life become luminous. Many of the sermons on thegospelcoalition.org treat such matters. At the risk of calling attention to individuals: (1) Not a few of the sermons of Tom Nelson (on the site) talk about how the believer serves God in the normal responsibilities and cycles of work. (2) Many of Tim Keller’s sermons do the same, with a greater emphasis on working in the arts, journalism, music, and so forth. (3) For a challenge across the field, read John Piper’s Don’t Waste Your Life. (4) To think through faithfulness in gospel proclamation and doing “deeds of mercy,” begin, perhaps, with a ten-page essay by Tim Keller in Themelios 33/3 (also on the site). (5) For those especially interested in Christianity and the arts, see the lovely 64-page booklet by Phil Ryken, Art for God’s Sake: A Call to Recover the Arts (2006). (6) For those interested in more global/political/theological analysis, try my Christ and Culture Revisited. (7) Similarly, it is worth reading Andy Crouch’s Culture Making: Recovering Our Creative Calling . (8) There are some workshops that were offered at both the 2007 and the 2009 Coalition conference that bear on these matters, and they are available as acoustic downloads. Some of them are quite moving.
This is but the merest introduction. What you must not do, however, is become so interested in questions about how the gospel should drive our entire life and impact every dimension of life, that one begins to neglect the study of the Bible itself, and remove one’s focus from Jesus, his cross and resurrection, his gospel.
Kevin DeYoung, Just Do Something. Interview & Book Giveaway
For me, the best book I’ve read so far in 2009 is Kevin DeYoung’s Just Do Something: A Liberating Approach To Finding God’s Will. I recently interviewed Kevin about Just Do Something, and I’ve been given 4 free copies of the book to give away.
In a paragraph, how would you summarize the message of Just Do Something?
The message of the book is 1 Thessalonians 4:3. This is the will of God: your sanctification. God wants us to be holy. He expects us to obey his Word, love Jesus and love others. That’s it. We should stop thinking passivity and inactivity are signs of spirituality. God’s will is not a maze or a magic 8-ball. He simply wants us to be obedient.
Though it’s a helpful book for all Christians, Just Do Something is especially directed towards twentysomethings. Why is this?
In my personal experience and in my interactions with plenty of college students and twentysomethings, I’ve found that most younger Christians wrestle with trying to find God’s will. We have so many choices and opportunities that we don’t know what to do. So we end up flailing after God’s will. Choices are hard enough without thinking God has a hidden right answer for us.
Say a twenty-one year old recent college graduate catches this interview and decides to buy and read your book. What practical impact do you hope Just Do Something would make on such a person’s life?
I hope this book is freeing for young people. We are focused on houses and careers and cars and spouses instead of focusing on holiness, purity, integrity, and maturity. Following God’s moral will is harder to do, but also a lot simpler. If we seek first his kingdom and righteousness we will be in the middle of God’s will. I want young people to start making a difference now, start growing up now, instead of thinking they need an all-clear sign from God before taking a job or making a weighty decision.
What connection does the gospel have to the message of Just Do Something?
I see several connections to the gospel: 1) Christ died for our sins so we don’t have to live in fearful anxiety that we might screw up. 2) Christ has conquered death and the devil. God has won. So let’s go take some risks for God. The worst that can happen is we get to meet Jesus sooner. 3) The gospel fulfilled God’s plan, demonstrating God’s providential reign over all things. We don’t need to know the future, because know the One who holds it in his hand.
Did you grow up with this liberating understanding God’s will and decision making, or did this discovery come later for you?
I’m not sure where it came from, but I definitely had the traditional understanding of God’s will when I was younger. I remember at seminary hearing a sermon on a Sunday evening, with about 45 other people there, about how God didn’t expect us to divine his will by our impressions. This was a new concept for me, but made sense biblically, and sounded freeing. Since then I started reading some good books on the subject and have been happy to live with more of a ‘just do something’ attitude.
Or, if you’re among the first 4 people to get in touch with me and give me your contact information, I’ll send you a free copy.
18 Minutes with Kent Hughes
A few months ago at our CPC Men’s Retreat I conducted an 18 minute interview with Kent Hughes. In the interview Kent sketches his life story and answers questions about his favorite book of the Bible, the gospel, cabin building, book recommendations, and being a godly man in 2009.
What The People Who Live In Your Backyard Think About Jesus
Update: I can’t figure out why the video is asking for a password. I’ll try to fix this. In the meantime, here’s the password: cpc
Last week I interviewed strangers at a shopping area about one mile away from our church campus. I asked them about Jesus: "Who is Jesus?" "What do you know about Jesus?" The answers were sometimes encouraging, but often saddening.
We showed part 1 of this video yesterday as we kicked off a new sermon series on Hebrews, Jesus for Beat-up People.
Check out the video. It’s less than 2 minutes long.
Tim Keller Interview
This last week Colin Adams provided a great preaching interview with Tim Keller–a man who’s in my fab five.
Gerrit Scott Dawson Interview: The Ascension of Jesus
A few months ago I read a great book. A few months ago I read through Gerrit Scott Dawson’s book, Jesus Ascended: The Meaning of Christ’s Continuing Incarnation. I was so encouraged and edified by Gerrit’s treatment of Christ’s Ascension, a doctrine that receives little air time in most pulpits and most Christian minds, that I decided to get in touch with Gerrit and interview him about why he devoted 5 years of his life to researching and pondering the Ascension and Continuing Incarnation of Christ. Here’s the interview (get ready–there’s some great nuggets in here):
Gerrit, tell us a little bit about yourself. Where do you live? What do you do? What are a few of the books that you’ve written?
After 13 years pastoring in North Carolina, we were called to the First Presbyterian Church in Baton Rouge, Louisiana in 2004. So, in my first year as pastor, we saw what the church was really made of as Hurricanes Katrina and Rita battered our state. God’s people were, and are, simply stunning in their compassion.
I’m continually trying to take people deeper into Jesus, into connecting with him in profound and transformative ways. My latest book is called Discovering Jesus: Awakening to God. It takes readers through a dozen encounters with Jesus. The whole point is to grow into deeper awareness of our union with Christ.
Jesus Ascended arose out of my passion to explore the riches of Christ, my thirst to know the deep reality of who Jesus is. I’m not one for visions or voices. One night, though, when I was awake and didn’t know why, I said, “Speak, Lord, for your servant is listening.” And the voice sounded inside my head: “I want you to write about my ascension.” That moment gave me the perseverance to plow through five years of research and writing.
Gerrit, in your book Jesus Ascended, you say that there’s a major "episode" of the gospel story that’s been sorely neglected by the American church, the episode/doctrine of Jesus’ Ascension. How do you think this happened?
The Ascension of Jesus has always been difficult for us as human beings. It just seems too fantastic. Did a guy really rise up in the sky and then disappear? You can almost visualize a Monty Python cartoon of Jesus waving from the clouds. We worry that the ascension was about some kind of space travel. And that seems silly. Now nobody I read from the church fathers to the present actually thought that was the case. The church has always understood that Jesus did bodily ascend up from the disciples. But he entered the shekinah cloud of glory—he was taken into God’s presence, and thus removed from our sight. He was, in a sense, translated into heaven. He is in a realm to which we cannot travel by any human means. Is your brain scrambled yet? It’s hard to think about the mechanics of the ascension, so we ignore it.
Plus, I think most Christians were like I was—we figure Jesus slipped out of his skin suit just as soon as he could. He didn’t hang on to our humanity. After his work was done, we figure he got back to being the Son of God without the drag of our human nature. It boggles our minds to consider that he is still in skin, still bearing our humanity.
What are some of the consequences you’ve seen arise from the neglect of this pivotal episode in the gospel story?
The gospel has always created the scandal of particularity. It offends our sense of autonomy and spiritual quest and even American egalitarianism to recognize that in this one particular man, Jesus, the eternal Son of God stood among us. Thus, God is like Jesus, and not another way. Jesus is Lord of all and I am not lord of my own life anymore.
Now if you want to get away from the claiming, demanding pressure of that truth, you’ve got to get rid of the particularity of Jesus. You need to spiritualize the resurrection and the ascension. Let resurrection be about a principle of new life, the continuing influence of Jesus, but not something as scandalous as one dead man who got up.
The ascension takes the scandal even further. Jesus held onto our humanity. He has taken it into heaven. The future of our humanity is bound up in what he has done with us. Where he goes is where we are meant to go. What he becomes is what we will become. All my soul quests, all my spirituality, all my wanting a god on my own terms gets blown away by the God-Man who is in heaven, still in my skin, still insisting that he is the one with whom we all have to deal.
So, we sprititualize the ascension. We make it about how the idea of Jesus got made heavenly. But that is disastrous for us! Losing the ascension cuts us off from the present work of Christ as our priest and intercessor. It cuts us off from the power of our hope—that one day our feeble bodies will be like his glorious body. It cuts us off from the downward pressure of the imminent return of Jesus—the same Jesus who ascended will return as judge and king. When I forget that, I can lose hope in the future or I can think that my actions have no ultimate consequences, or that what we do in this world or to this earth is not really important.
Gerrit, what are a few practical ways that Christians can apply the doctrine of Jesus’ Ascension and continuing Incarnation to their daily lives?
The Ascension means that Jesus has wedded himself to our humanity forever. That means he has taken what we are into his eternal relationship with his Father. As we are in Christ, we are included in the Triune love of God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That offers remarkable joy and assurance.
Further, as one ancient father put it, that now “dust sits on the throne of heaven.” Human being has been taken into the life of God. Jesus did not drop us. He holds us in himself. We have a future. Who we are will not be lost—we will continue as Jesus does, as embodied creatures, transformed but still continuous with who we are. We will know each other. We will be us, only perfected, into eternity. That should put a spring in your step and a smile on your face.
More, the continuing incarnation reminds us that Jesus is still going to the Father in our name and on our behalf. He knows what it is to be human, he offers the worship, the obedience, the prayer that we should, but cannot, muster. As we open ourselves to union with Christ, by the Spirit, he lives his ascended life in us more and more. That’s where the power for Christian living comes from: Christ in me, the one who is God and still man, living his resurrected, ascended life through us.
Lastly, it means we can look at this world and realize God is not done with it yet. He didn’t drop our humanity, he didn’t drop this world. This is why we can go and “waste” time caring for the least and the lost. This is why we care for creation and seek to restore, not destroy the earth—it is, and remains, the field of God’s redemptive work.
Besides your own great book, are there any other books you’d recommend to those who’d like to study up on Jesus’ Ascension?
I’d recommend going to Abebooks.com and ordering a copy of H. B Swete’s The Ascended Christ. It’s 100 years old, but still remarkably clear. You can get it fairly cheaply and it’s an excellent introduction. I’d also keep my eye out for the forthcoming Ascension Theology by Douglas Farrow, a popular version of his massive scholarly work.
Graeme Goldsworthy Interview
One my favorite biblical interpreters is Graeme Goldsworthy, former lecturer in Old Testament, biblical theology, and hermeneutics at Moore Theological College in Sydney, Australia. I’ve recently had the privilege of getting to know Graeme a little bit. And while Graeme presently manages a busy schedule of part-time teaching at Moore and various other speaking, preaching, and writing engagements, Graeme was kind enough to carve out some time for me to conduct an interview with him here on Buzzard Blog.
The interview:
1. Graeme, as you know, I pastor a group of twentysomethings here in the California Bay Area. Even though this group is composed mostly of people who’ve been Christians for many years, I’ve found the need to constantly re-preach, define, and apply the gospel to this group. As a group, we’ve been finding that we never outgrow the gospel–that we grow as Christians only by way of the gospel. Since this word “gospel” is so often used, yet so rarely defined in Christian circles, could you please define “the gospel” for us?
Justin, you are right. We cannot go on from the gospel, only with the gospel.
I would define the gospel as the events, or the message proclaiming those events, of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. This is not simply to tell the events in order, but to allow the Bible to give its interpretation of those events.
It is important that we don’t confuse the gospel (the objective events of 2,000 years ago), with a lot of things that we might include in an evangelistic talk or sermon. Thus things that are NOT the gospel include:
Our need for the gospel.
Our predestination to be beneficiaries of the gospel.
The effects of receiving the gospel.
The effects of not receiving the gospel.
Thus, contrary to some inexact Christian pious talk, we cannot live the gospel. We can, and must, seek to live consistently with it, but only Jesus lived, and died, the gospel.
2. Graeme, you write books on biblical theology. For those who aren’t familiar with biblical theology, could you tell us a little bit about what biblical theology is?
Biblical theology is the study of how every text in the Bible relates to every other text in the Bible. It’s the study of the matrix of divine revelation. At the heart of the gospel is the person of Jesus Christ; he is the word of God come in the flesh. The nature of the gospel is such that it demands that it be at the centre of the biblical message. Biblical theology is, then, the study of how every text in the Bible relates to Jesus and his gospel. Thus we start with Christ so that we may end with Christ. Biblical theology is Christological, for its subject matter is the Scriptures as God’s testimony to Christ. It is therefore, from start to finish, a study of Christ.
Biblical theology consists in the study of what the Bible teaches as the Bible teaches it. Its focus is on the big picture of the unity of the Bible. There are two complementary approaches to biblical theology (BT). The one is synchronic, that is, it takes a part of the biblical text and opens out its theological teaching. Thus, we might have an examination of the theology of a particular book or theme. This approach, however, in order not to be fragmentary, needs the other perspective, the diachronic. This looks at the unity of the biblical message throughout the whole of redemptive history contained in the canon of Scripture.
How BT is actually done will depend a great deal on our dogmatic presuppositions about the nature of Scripture. If we have not got confidence in the Bible as the inspired word of God, we will treat it as a collection of human documents. Liberalism killed BT because it could not allow for the unity of Scripture as reflecting the one mind of its one Author.
3. How have you seen the gospel misunderstood or obscured because of a lack of thoughtful biblical theology?
A lack of BT leads to a lack of a proper sense of the inter-connectedness of all texts. Some Christians appear to regard the OT as a largely unconnected with Jesus. For them, God tried salvation by works of the law in Israel, but it failed. So, God had to come up with a better plan and, lo and behold, we have the gospel!
Good BT is needed in order to connect the OT and the NT in a valid perspective. Because the NT presupposes the OT, ignorance of the OT leads to a superficial view of what it means for Jesus to be the Christ (messiah), and be the fulfiller of the OT.
4. Graeme, what are some other dangers that can creep into a church if a church is not taught about biblical theology?
Biblical theology shows us that all texts do not have the same relationship to the Christian believer. What happens when people are not shown this is a tendency to short circuit texts. In other words, evangelical piety can lead people to rush from reading a text straight into the question of what this says to us and about us. But, there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus and BT helps us to see how Jesus mediates the meaning of any text to us. The Christian is defined by his or her relationship to Christ, not to any other person or event. Thus all persons and events in the Bible must stand in a discernible relationship to Christ if they are to say something about us.
5. Describe the importance that Luke 24:27 has played in your life.
This passage as a whole, ie. Luke 24:27 in its context, along with vv.44-45, is for me one excellent starting point in establishing our hermeneutics of the Bible. For me, it is part, but only a part, of the NT evidence that the OT is about Jesus. How it is about him is the next question to be dealt with. For me this passage is part of the evidence that the first question we put to a text is not “What does this say to or about us?,” but “How does this text testify to Jesus?” I say again, the Christian life is defined by our relationship to Jesus, so until we understand who and what Jesus is, we cannot properly understand what our relationship to him is.
6. Graeme, of all the books you’ve written, which book do you sense has been most helpful for others? Why?
Probably Gospel and Kingdom followed by According to Plan. Different books help different people. The common denominator in everything I’ve written is a desire to demonstrate the value of BT and, my understanding of course, of how to do it. These two, more than others, attempt to show the big picture of biblical revelation, while others, such as Gospel and Wisdom and The Gospel in Revelation are more focused on specific things. Preaching the Whole Bible as Christian Scripture also sets out something of the big picture but is aimed more narrowly at teachers and preachers.
7. Finally, Graeme, I know that many people who are reading this interview have never before studied up on biblical theology. What are a few introductory books on biblical theology that you would direct such readers towards?
Gospel and Kingdom,
According to Plan
Other than my own books, which I do not hesitate to say that people should read them (if I didn’t think that, I wouldn’t have written them!), others that point in the same direction would include:
Mark Strom, Days are Coming
Vaughan Roberts, God’s Big Picture.
And of course for children you cannot go past:
Dave Helm, The Big Picture Story Bible
Graeme, thank you for your time and your thoughtful answers. Many of us here in the states are counting down the days until your new book, Gospel-Centered Hermeneutics, is released here in the U.S. Hopefully this interview will lead many readers to your many books and further the understanding, adoration, and advancement of the gospel.
Interview: Mark A. Weathers
Mark A. Weathers is a pastor at Providence Presbyterian Church in North Carolina and the author of a great little book that I’m reading right now, How to Pray for Your Wife. I recently interviewed Mark, asking him about his book, and a few other topics. Here’s the interview:
Mark, what led you to write How to Pray for Your Wife?
Before my wife, Tara, and I left the country to serve as missionaries in Ecuador, a friend gave my wife a document written by Bob Hostetler called 31 Biblical Virtues to Pray for your Children. As I saw my wife daily praying for our sons, I thought to myself, “Wow, it would be great if I had something like that to pray for my wife.” Running with this idea, I went to the Scriptures to design “31 Prayers for a Wife.” Using Proverbs 31 (the quintessential passage on the excellent woman), I studied it in its original Hebrew and crafted an outline that I used in my daily prayers.
Interestingly enough, it was not my aim to see this published. Several years after I completed my outline, I gave a copy to a friend of mine who pastors a church in Chicago. He passed it on to a contact he knew at Crossway. I was then encouraged to submit a proposal to Crossway, which I did, thinking it would get shot down. But lo and behold, after some months had passed, Crossway contacted me with their interest to turn my outline into a devotional book for men. Needless to say, I was pleasantly surprised.
What changes have you seen in your life and in your marriage as you’ve learned to more thoughtfully and regularly pray for your wife?
Justin, I realize the need to choose my words with care here, so I’ll answer the question and trust your readers can read between the lines. In a nutshell, I would have to say GREATER INTIMACY has happened. When Tara and I stood at the altar and exchanged our vows, I thought I couldn’t possibly love this woman more than I did then. And now I look back and am overwhelmed at the depth of the love we share, and how that love has deepened through the ups and downs of real life.
I have also seen changes in my ministry. Not only have I fallen deeper in love with my bride, I have fallen deeper in love with The Bride, the church. Understanding better the marriage relationship has expanded my understanding of ecclesiology (the study of the church). Namely, that God is so in love with his people that he is on a mission to redeem the universe. He sent Christ to re-capture a runaway world. And through his grace, we, as Christ’s Bride, get to support him in this venture!
Mark, why is a solid understanding and enjoyment of the gospel central to a healthy marriage and to a husband’s prayers?
Great question, Justin. The gospel is central (or should be central) to the life of every follower of Jesus. There is NOTHING else in this world that has the power to transform a life. A good movie might move us; an unexpected check in the mail may excite us; a good book might motivate us; a glass of aged wine may impress us. But only the message of the gospel can transform us. Paul said, “I am not ashamed of the gospel because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes…” (Romans 1:16).
Understanding the gospel helps us understand the work of grace going on in us and in the lives of our spouse. Case in point: it is so amazing that even after I have been a jerk to my wife, she still loves me and thinks I’m the man of her dreams. I don’t deserve that kind of love. But that’s what makes grace so amazing – it’s not deserved; it’s granted. In the same way, Jesus loves me even when I run after and lust after some idol, thinking it will bring me life. I come back to Jesus repentant, and he offers pardon and cleansing.
Whoa, I got off on a tangent. We were talking about marriage. Anyway, I would have to say a healthy marriage is one that reflects a graceful ballroom dance. When one partner happens to miss a step and comes down on the other’s toes, there is no retaliation. Instead, the dance continues (or should continue).
Your book is built around Proverbs 31. Are there any other passages of Scripture that have proved especially helpful to you in guiding prayer for your wife?
Before I answer this question, I want to clear up some misunderstandings of Proverbs 31. Most of the time when I talk to single Christian men, I hear them say that they want to marry a Proverbs 31 woman. If there are females present in the midst of such a conversation, I usually hear, “Good luck there, buddy. She doesn’t exist.” All this to illustrate that I have come to discover that many Christian women don’t like Proverbs 31 because it has been misused to beat them up and send them packing for a guilt trip. And I have to agree. I have cringed through many a sermon on Proverbs 31 where the well-intentioned preacher didn’t have a clue about the abundant grace present in the passage.
As far as other guiding passages, I would have to say Ephesians 5:21-33. In such a few short verses, Paul sure packs a punch about marriage and the church.
Mark, how would you advise men who are not yet married, but who want to be married, to be praying for a future spouse?
Buy my book! Uh, seriously, I would say that as you pray for your future wife (or single gals, as you pray for your future husbands), begin to understand that God is in the process of designing someone specifically for you. Your ultimate spouse will be someone God uses to make you into the man or woman he wants you to be and not necessarily the man or woman you think you should be. Put simply, my former doctrine professor, Dr. Krabbendam, said it best: “Marriage is not meant to make you happy; it’s meant to make you holy.” (Funny, I didn’t quite understand this until after I was married).
